Are you and "in" or an "out"?

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  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭
    At parkrun today the core group(the regular runners, volunteers and cafe crew) were all appalled by the outcome of the vote and could not understand it. I guess runners are generally middle class ish and therefore are not as disenfranchised as the mass of people on very low wages (or benefits) who feel they are being shafted.

    Taxing big business and sharing the proceeds among the deprived would have made a difference. Governments of the last 40 years ought to be very very ashamed. Bedroom tax is an obvious attempt to punish the poor for the misdeeds of the ruling classes. I voted remain but I can see why so many did not. We need a change but not the one we are getting. Sad times.
  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/boris-johnson-michael-gove-eu-liars

    Interesting about Gove:

    Naturally, Michael Gove, former Times columnist, responded to the thousands of economists who warned he was taking an extraordinary risk with the sneer that will follow him to his grave: “People in this country have had enough of experts.” He’s being saying the same for years.

    If sneers won’t work, the worst journalists lie. The Times fired Johnson for lying to its readers. Michael Howard fired Johnson for lying to him. When he’s cornered, Johnson accuses others of his own vices, as unscrupulous journalists always do. Those who question him are the true liars, he blusters, whose testimony cannot be trusted because, as he falsely said of the impeccably honest chairman of the UK Statistics Authority, they are “stooges”.

    The Vote Leave campaign followed the tactics of the sleazy columnist to the letter. First, it came out with the big, bold solution: leave. Then it dismissed all who raised well-founded worries with “the country is sick of experts”. Then, like Johnson the journalist, it lied.

  • What I have been seeing a lot on social media today is the view there seems to be among leavers that it somehow matters that Remain "lied" (debatable ) but that not that leave did (certain).

    I am currently on a mission to get an explanation from a leaver as to why this is , Especially because it looks to have swung the vote and therefore was pretty much a perversion of the democratic process.

    By the way, if you don't want the feeling that you need to wash your eyes in bleach never go anywhere near Nigel Farage's Facebook page. i don't want to even acknowledge such vile, braying, ignorant  people even exist.

  • 15West- lots of people have been sharing that Article. I think it should be required reading for everyone who voted, especially on the leave side.

    Alastair Campbell also wrote an absolutely scathing piece in the International Business Times.

  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    And all this just to settle an internal squabble of the Conservative Party. FFS.

  • Yup. Great innit?

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    Screamapillar, if you want a terrible evening go and read Katie Hopkins' Twitter feed. I always thought she was just a panto villain. Turns out she's the mainstream voice of far right hate speech. The replies are a treat.
  • I can only imagine image

     

  • I'm married to a non-EU citizen and we used to live in Spain. When we moved back to the UK he used the EU free movement system to settle here (his free movement rights derive from mine because we're married). He now has a five year EU residency card which cost us £55.

    If we had used the UK domestic immigration sytem, he wouldn't have been able to come with me. I'd have had to move back to the UK alone and he back to his country. I would have had to find a job that pays 18.6 k and save 6 months payslips to prove I can support him. We'd then be eligable to apply for a spouse visa which costs around £1000 (+£600 NHS surcharge). Spouse visas take 3-4 months to process and last just over two years (then you go through the same process again). So with the time to find a job, save the payslips and process the visa, I would have spent over a year without my lovely husband.

    The EU has been a great benefit to us where the UK government are failing its own citizens with non-EU spouse.

     

     

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    I did look at the Farage page. The followers are ripping the piss out of this petition for another referendum. Sort of fair enough. What surprised me though was that many thought after the currency and market drop yesterday, and fairly decent recovery it has to be said, that was the difficult times all over. The rest is beer, skittles and demolishing the BBC and leftist cabal that secretly runs the country. Just one day and it's all settled. They're an optimistic bunch.
  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    Runner5107, it's a great shame what we've done. There's been to much empty rhetoric and to little focus the way this will actually effect people. Actual "real, ordinary" people, not Farage's empty parochial construct. I was reading about some people who work on maintaining an area of costal path. It's an EU funded project. They've been told the project will close before the end of the year and they're out of a job. The path conservation won't continue. Stuff like that makes me very sad.
  • Agree JT image

    News from project Leave Lies not good - I have had one guy say "yes it was wrong" with no elaboration and no follow up when I asked if it concernred him that it might have been a perversion of the democratic process.

    Some other foaming at the mouth twit said that all politicians lie but hasn't yet elaborated on why some lies don't seem to matter or what he personally feels that lies may well have won the referendum. He seems to think that the WW3 remark by David Cameron is somehow worse than reneging on an actual promise.

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    What Cameron actually said was, "Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking?"

    When challenged about it he said. "No, I don't believe that leaving the EU would cause World War Three to break out on the European continent."

    But the leave campaign turned it into the hyperbolic "WW3 will break out if we leave" shutting down any sensible discussion about the EU offering a degree of cohesion in a continent with a pretty bad track record of conflict.

    Funnily enough I just saw some stuff on this subject, the gist of which was "we've voted out and war hasn't broken out. So much for project fear". I don't think it was a joke, but it's hard to tell these days.
  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    A leave bloke at work told me we'll be ok like we were in WW2!

    Anyway, it's happened. Going to have one more day obsessing about this and then I'm going to pretend I don't give a shit.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Just seen news about Benn being sacked. Labour are about to rip themselves apart.

  • JT141 wrote (see)
    What Cameron actually said was, "Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking?"
    When challenged about it he said. "No, I don't believe that leaving the EU would cause World War Three to break out on the European continent."
    But the leave campaign turned it into the hyperbolic "WW3 will break out if we leave" shutting down any sensible discussion about the EU offering a degree of cohesion in a continent with a pretty bad track record of conflict.
    Funnily enough I just saw some stuff on this subject, the gist of which was "we've voted out and war hasn't broken out. So much for project fear". I don't think it was a joke, but it's hard to tell these days.

    I know,  perhaps I should have said misquoted WW3 remark. Mind you, even if he had said it how could you call it a lie - we have no idea what will happen a few hers down the line one way or the other. 

     

  • 15W - I have read that  one a couple of times too.

    You know, what was really needed weren't TV debates it was fecking history lessons!

    The US could blunder into a similar sort of  mess come November only there, there will be some one with an actual mental disorder in charge.

    i expect it is making Putin happy though.

  • Anyway...

    It is true that the Commons is majority opposed to leaving and the Tories don't have a very big majority So it holds the cards in what happens next.

    Chukka Umunna has already been quoted as saying that they will not let them renege on the NHS promise, although no mention is being made that it was probably a false figure anyway.

  • NessieNessie ✭✭✭
    JT141 wrote (see)
    Screamapillar, if you want a terrible evening go and read Katie Hopkins' Twitter feed. I always thought she was just a panto villain. Turns out she's the mainstream voice of far right hate speech. The replies are a treat.

    I'd rather wire my nipples to the mains.

    The country (and most probably the EU) are in meltdown.  Like in the Scottish referendum, half of the country thinks the other half are wrong, and are at each others' throats.  It's awful.  I am so sad it has come to this.

    I don't think the petition to rerun the referendum will come to anything, and despite what I've seen elsewhere, I don't think the Tories will have the balls to ignore the vote and not invoke Article 50.  So all we can do now is try to make damned sure neither Farage or Johnson become PM.

  • Apparently, Nessie, there are moves in the Conservative Party to make sure that Boris Johnson does not get elected leader.

    The results of Project Leave Lies so far seem to be suggesting that nobody actually cares as long as they end up on the winning side. In other words, "yeah, I was hoodwinked but at least I was hoodwinked by MY guy and not YOUR guy".

    it is the same psychology that seems to be playing out in the U.S.

    My conclusion is that someone must be lobotomising people in their sleep.

    I am waiting for comments to open on the Guardian so that I can try to get an answer from some people who are a bit more familiar with debate rather than just name calling and SHOUTING VERY LOUDLY...

  • i may have to pose as a betrayed leaver somewhere to see if I get a different response.

  • With everything that is happening inside the Labour Party this morning it does bring home just how many cracks have been papered over in politics and for how long.

    i guess, in some way, this dreadful upheaval was necessary. Hopefully, at the end of it all what transpires is a more positive political environment, make voter engagement and better representation.

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    History lessons.

    Niall Ferguson who specialises in economic history has declared 'Generation Led Zep has just kicked Britain down the Stairway to Hell!

    That's obviously the wider, totally informed, totally in receipt of all the facts, view and summation.

    However, Joe Publics average view of the world is from the TV, their mates, stops at the end of their own road and where a long term view is about 3 weeks.

    Lets face it, how many decisions are made on impulse and appetite.

  • Ric, so much so that it actually doesn't seem to matter to a lot of leavers one way or the other whether they get what they voted for.

    we are supposed to respect these people and the decision they made, not accuse them of stupidity. I just can't do that,. Because if you are not howling with rage that you were betrayed on Thursday then you have to be utterly dense.

    the only way they may get any of what they want is through the collective will of Remain politicians, they very ones they hate and distrust!

     

     

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Screama, I don't blame those who voted 'remain' for being upset. Yes, it isn't the result which rankles, rather the way of the means by which that result came about.

    If a vote was held on the same subject with the rider that the voter had to field reasons for their decision. Then the result would be a landslide victory (if that's what it is) for 'remains'.

    I wasn't betrayed one way or the other on Thursday. The bottom line is how does the result actually change your life right now?

    Being pissed off at a result is about thought processes rather than anything concrete.

    Really. The result means a quick check of bank balance, job, food in the shops and lack of civil war outside.

    The evidence appears to be that nothing has changed.

    Well, apart from the perception that half the population is thick.

     

     

  • VDOT52VDOT52 ✭✭✭
    2 million signatures asking for a rerun of the referendum can jot be ignored. If it happens then remain would probably get 70%

    I bet most of the leave crew thought Farage would magically be crowned prime minister and not Johnson or the lovely mr gove, after all Farage and his right wing shit is what they were voting for, eu membership just got caught in the crossfire.



    The leave voting English ought to be very ashamed of themselves. They are so thick that they can not see a difference between being patriotic and being an abhorrent racist.



    On a day like this I am proud to be Irish. My British (Northern Irish) wife is getting an Irish passport ordered this week as are many in Northern Ireland Including a lot of Unionists. They have seen that the uk is now a danger to them rather than a safety blanket. Sad times.
  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    Ric, this is day 2. Human beings have a habit of projecting themselves into the future. It's part of our success. I've seen a load of stuff from leavers who treat this like the Millenium Bug scare. It's struck midnight and planes haven't fallen out of the sky, so that's that. No nothing concrete is effecting me now. It's like taking a hefty kick in the balls. There's that second or two before the hot sickening pain starts rising up through your body. It doesn't really hurt in those first seconds, you might even think perhaps you've got away with it, but you can't switch off from the fact that before you know it you'll be doubled up with a head full of white hot plummy agony.
  • runner-manrunner-man ✭✭✭

    The 3 million who want a 2nd referendum will simply not happen. Maybe raised in parliament for debate. But you cannot reverse a democratic vote. 46,500,061 were eligible to vote. 33,551,983 voted. So why didn't the 12,948,078 bothered?

    I feel this referendum and indeed the last general election demonstrated how bad our electoral system really is. Too many vote by being narrow-minded. They will accept anything given and take it as fact.

    We have gone towards the American style of politics. Too much on personality and who you like. Elections shouldn't be based on debates, soundbites and headlines. Any future election should allow two free weeks where all parties send their manifesto to every home. Give them the information, then start campaigning.

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    I don't see the point in this petition. I do see the point in getting onto our councils, parliament, peers and asking the question, "which takes precedence, the future stability and good of the country, or the democratic result of this referendum?". This is now a matter of conscience. In all good faith is it right to carry through an action that you know will cause profound and ongoing damage to the country and the people in it? Or is the concept of democracy more important than we are? if we end up serving an idiots democracy rather than democracy serving us then it's a waste of fucking time.



    Do not go gentle into that good night, rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • Just heard BBC news on the radio. People elated and talking about the immigrants.



    Thats what they thought they were voting on.
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